Being, or trying to be, a goblin relies a lot on using/abusing M&S(Morons and slackers). Now, most of us doesn't care, we don't feel sorry for them. But what if we trick them some more?
I advertised in trade, giving away free gold making tips with inscription. Basically, what I told those who asked for it, was to buy eternal life and Snowfall ink and craft northrend darkmoon cards. I also slipped the fact that a nobles deck sells for about 4.5k gold. Now, from the M&S's point of view, 4,500g is a lot of gold and he doesn't understand the concept of supply and demand which means it'll take weeks to sell that nobles deck when he gets one.
So, even though those I sold it to were level 38 and 56 with inscription below 200, I sold 10 snowfall ink. I insisted on selling them right now, since next patch, their price would sky-rocket 400%(Or, so I said), so they should buy it while it's cheap.
I sold 10 snowfall ink for 15g / each while they were on AH for 9g / each. Is this immoral? Isn't it what we do every day basically? Tricking them. We sell vendor items for 10g+ and we dominate the markets with our knowledge. We know that if everyone was smart, there wouldn't be much profits to be made and we thrive in their stupidity.
So, the question is: Was it immoral to do what I did? I lied about the price sky-rocketing and I sold it for higher than AH price. I, for one, don't see it as immoral, but I'd like other opinions.
Goodbye, dear readers!
5 år sedan
It depends how ruthless you are!
SvaraRaderaHowever there could be long term repercussions if one were to keep 'tricking' players left right and centre.
While most goblins couldn't care less about getting a "bad reputation", it can lower the amount of people willing to buy, sell and trade goods with you.
Today's buyer is potentially tomorrow's farmer.
I think lying is immoral or maybe amoral, but worse in the long run I think it is not smart.
SvaraRaderaFirst moralities, self image, philosophically speaking, who do you think you are, how do you define yourself? I think we define who we are internally by how we think of ourselves, and externally by how we behave and how we relate with others. I like to think I am an honest person and I try not to lie. Are you happy to consider yourself a liar; are you happy for others to see you as a liar?
Long term strategy, business IRL has (reluctantly) come to the conclusion that telling the truth is better for the business "in the long run" and "in general". However I am quite sure this does not apply in anonymous video games. However lying is not needed to make 10-20k per week in WoW, so why bother? And as the previous commenter has pointed out, it may cost you business opportunities (lost opportunities may be unquantifiable, but that does not make them any less real).
Lying for fun, to play tricks, the moment you let the trick cross the boundary from haha fooled you to, actually cost them some money (time is money therefore WoW gold = time = money IRL), you crossed from playing a trick, to gaining by deception. Are you really happy to be a liar, to be known as a liar?
Such lies will most likely not get you much of a bad reputation (people have short memories), your blog readers may get a laugh out of this, your readership may even increase. However lies may cost you business opportunities (as noted by the previous poster). Further they go to who you define yourself as. IRL the law only stops you if you are caught, what is meant to stop you from doing bad things is supposed to be internal to yourself, your morals, your character. So what is your "character" IRL, Liar, Thief, Fraudster, Predator, or decent person? Only you can know the answer to that, but you send pretty clear signals to others when you are prepared to brag about what you will do for a quick buck or for some self entertainment.
@Kotamundus:
SvaraRaderaI did not do it for self-entertainment, I got enough of that already. This was a serious question and I thank you for answering serious.
I don't see the post as a brag about what I did, like people do with selling resilient parchments and such.
The point is that, many people would frown upon what I did, still some of those people sell resilient parchments for 1000% of the vendor price. Is this a fraud?
The price of snowfall ink does usually sky-rocket when the darkmoon faire comes to town. It goes up to about 30-40g which is about what I told them. If they keep it, they might be able to do some profit with it, if they buy low and sell high, I might just have teached them something(which you might argue as being good or bad)
150g for 10 minutes of whispering and explaining is not a quick buck, and I got better stuff I could've done with the time.
Still, I did it as a test. The two persons I sold it to should be able to turn it into profit without using inscription as I told them.
There are a few points I'd like to make about your post.
SvaraRadera1. Do you feel bad about it? Before knowing if it's immoral you can also ask yourself this. (Like with lying as Kotamundus said.)
2. Your post does suggest some braging ("tricking the idiots" "their stupidity") are superiority (me as opposed to "the idiots"). I'm not denying they are in fact stupid, nor that yout intention was not to brag, just stressing what is the underlying message your post conveys and how it rubs your ego. (It does feel good to sell vendor items on AH - more on that soon.)
3. "I advertised in trade, giving away free gold making tips with inscription." What you did was to advertise a service you didn't provide. Worse: what you did was to advertise a service you didn't even intend to provide. You carried it all out to your own benefit, nothing else.
4. Arguing post facto that you might as well have done it with another intention doesn't get you off the hook. Morality is mostly something that deals with intentions (if you are interested check: Kant, Immanuel, Grundlegung zur Metaphysik der Sitten: Kant still pretty much sets a standard which cannot be outlooked), and original ones. You, as stated clearly intended to cheat gold out of those M&S. All you did was had an end. When you did it it wasn't about "teaching them something" (even if you did, it's not the point!), it was about scamming (this is the word. Or: con, fraud, etc) them and making gold out of them.
5. Selling vendor items on AH vs. your post: while the former relies on missinformation (yes, there is where you can include our: "a goblin relies a lot on using/abusing M&S"), the latter is achieved by providing them with such missinformation yourself. It makes all the difference. You don't "trick them some more" this way: you just trick them. Putting vendor items on the AH isn't tricking anyone: you just put items for sale, people buy - it's called "open market". Furthermore, sometimes certain vendor items are only sold by remote NPC's, so you should actually consider the cost in gold (flight, reagent (portal), etc) plus opportunity cost thereof. (However, most of the times it isn't the case. The difference still lies on being active or passive - being passive when you have no [moral] obligation to be active is not cheating.)
Basically we don't actually trick them... Their lack of information, or plain laziness, make them make such economically irrational choices.
Bonus point: "If everyone was smart" you'd just have less of a profit and that would lead people both to specialisation and the overwide spread of cooperatives. Or so I believe.
Serious post. No flame intended.
Sorry about lenght.
-Omni
You got a couple of good points, but I think you missed mine.
SvaraRadera1. I do feel bad for what I did, that's the reason I'm posting it. They can make profit with what I gave them though(More on that later)
2. In my humble opinion, idiots are equivalent to Morons and slackers in the sense that they're not used as a word to brag, although I do agree that it does imply superiority.
3. I'm not even sure at what're you hinting at here. "free gold making tips with inscription"
I gave them tips that gave me profit, but it was also an opportunity for them to use if they did a little thinking.
So, the tips was free(I did not charge for the tips), the tips were about making gold. It were tips(not a full guide), and you needed inscription to do it. Exactly what part in my message was it that I did NOT provide?
4. You're completely right, I did it for my own sake. My priority was never to learn the ones I talked to. They were only a tool in my process to gold, who gained some gold in the process.
"intended to cheat gold", no cheating involved at all. I did lie about the patch, I admit that. The price is still hovering at 20g / each as I write. It increases with 100% when darkmoon faire arrives.
"When you did it it wasn't about "teaching them something", it was about scamming them and making gold out of them"
2/3 of what you said is right. My intention was not to teach them something, it was just a consequence of my auctions(The lesson in this case was not to not trust me, they learned a way to change gold into mats into stuff into profit.
I still claim that what I did was not scamming.
I do fully admit that I did it to make gold out of them, but I see nothing bad in that since they got what they wanted.
5. I agree with all of this, this is why I posted this and the reason I feel guilty. The reason I'm defending myself however, is because I don't feel guilty for all of the things I did, only some.
When I talked about vendor items, I did not count the ones sold by remote NPC's.
"Their lack of information, or plain laziness, make them make such economically irrational choices." I agree with that, but I do think it applies on what I did.
Their lack of information made them make a not as economically irrational choice as buying a vendor item for 1000% more than it's vendor price(Which, by the way, would be a bigger loss than if you used the snowfall ink I sold to them badly and lost gold in the process)
Bonus point: I thought that was my point?
I took it as a serious post, no problem, and don't worry about the length. I like discussions.
Last words: I'm ready to accept the fact that I might be an immoral, bragging idiot who feels superior to other people. People just need to provide good facts to support that theory.
Another question is, are you? I'm not saying that using the market as a goblin makes you an immoral, bragging idiot who feels superior to other people, but if you were one, would you accept it, given the proper arguments and facts?
I love these kind of discussions and I am ready to accept the rational consequences they can provide.
SvaraRadera1. This was just because being immoral is not necessarily "bad" in at least one way of seeing it (not going into this now, but will if you'd like me to). But, if you don't feel really well about it AND it is immoral then I'd say it's not good.
2. My comment here was about your own comment in this thread while replying to Kotamundus: "I don't see the post as a brag post about what I did". Although at first glance your post hints at bragging, a closer look will tell that it is more like: "I'm superior. How far can I go abusing my superiority without being immoral?". And this is what I wanted to say. I understood it wasn't a "brag post" and I believe it as a genuine call to finding an answer to the above question. However, the first impression could be the same one as Kotamundus (end of his coment.)
3. My point here was just to stress that your intention was not giving (free) tips (you wanted to do a "WTS [Snowfall Ink] 15g" and ended up with a "Giving free advice on how to make gold with inscription.") But i do believe my point need further clarification. Correct me if i'm wrong. a) your intention was to sell Snowfall ink (on trade chat - and to M&S since others wouldn't buy it for 15g if it goes for 9g on the AH). b) your tips had the intention of making them buy the Snowfall, not exactly that of making those M&S earn gold. c) you weren't giving it away, you were creating a setting on which you could sell your snowfall. However I do believe I was too harsh and unclear. Since yes, you did provide some kind of information regarding making gold with inscription.
4. Maybe I used too strong words here. "Scam" as used in "wow-lingo" (asking for mats to craft something and keeping them without crafting) is what I call stealing, plain and simple. What you did was not stealing. Let me try and use simpler words so that concepts don't overlap as much: you lied in order to sell (I bet every car salesman does it right?) Is that wrong? I think it is. You can argue that others should notice you were lying (i.e. they had the info to know that your inks weren't "cheap") Do people do it in real life? Everytime. Is it moral? I doubt it can be defended that it is.
5. "Their lack of information, or plain laziness, make them make such economically irrational choices."
Wouldn't you find it to be "economically irrational" to buy 150g worth of Snowf from trade chat, when it would be available for 90g on AH? I only mean to say that, if they had such info, they wouldn't have bought from you. I believe this to be a quite fair assessment even if you can find more irrational ones.
-Omni (part 1 of 2)
Bonus point: yes. I was agreeing with you and trying to get to some consequences. bonus tracks often suck: the expections created are usually higher than their worth ;)
SvaraRaderaLast words:"I'm ready to accept the fact that I might be an immoral, bragging idiot who feels superior to other people"
I'm not judging you as a whole. I was just, at your request, issuing an opinion about ONE single action. One bad deed doesn't make anyone bad.
About myself: I believe we don't know it all. Knowledge seems to consume time in the process and it's impossible to know all (even if some people have more efficient ways to gain more knowledge). So if I know more about 1 aspect I might know less about others. If you read gold making blogs or wow economy related ones, you'll notice most of those people (and no offense intenteded here) are "noobs", "noobish" or "noober" in terms of playing the actual game (i.e. the "hardcore" can play better than them, and they can work the AH better - but maybe no one really cares about the other aspect of the game.) Superiority is usually a misused concept in "general terms". People are superior to others in particular things. What's there to brag if A is better than B playing the AH? B gets to do Tribute to insanity or so... Even if he sucks at everything in wow he might be good doing something else; he might be 13 while you might be 26 (comparisons should then be drawn when people have had the same age.
Other notes:
Also, in wow you're allowed to play from ages 13 and up which means you can get a 13 year-old guy making economical choices he wouldn't be allowed in real life OR economical choices that could be overriden by a court order (i.e. he would be unfit (for lack of a better word here) to engage in certain contracts/ economical choices). This was meant only as food for thought as what wow does with this age limit is to enable all economical choices to these people. That takes me to the next point. Whether we like it or not, this is not (meant as) an "economy game". I know you can play your MMORPG the way you like, but the truth is wow isn't as economy driven as other MMORPG and isn't such a game. What is the % of players you'd estimate that plays WoW for the economy factor? it's say it's quite slim. The point being M&S don't really care much about it, they just want to have enough gold to pay for their running costs. They would however care if they knew they were being "tricked", not because of the gold (some know they can get it cheaper if they do it another way but they don't want to invest the time in it - the "slackers"), but because of being fooled - that, "nobody" likes. Or so I believe.
We can talk about many issues that arise from the central one, which is, I believe, 4. That would be the cornerstone of my argument. However, there is the "everybody does it anyway" argument and I for once have made many mistakes in my life and i don't mean to preach morals (or to show moral superiority.) I do strive to behave in a way that leaves me with a clear conscience.
-Omni (part 2 of 2)
I got several things to say, and I'm starting to lose track of what things came in what order, so I'll just say them all.
SvaraRaderaFirst, I'd like to make a point on the 5th point about what I did vs. selling vendor items.
"the latter is achieved by providing them with such missinformation yourself."
The core thing of what I did that can be considered immoral is selling them higher than the AH price. I did not bring any more misinformation than that(although my intentions can be discussed)
I didn't tell them that there was cheaper inks available elsewhere(The auction house) You(Or someone who sells vendor items) doesn't tell them that there is cheaper items available elsewhere(The vendor)
Next point, "I do strive to behave in a way that leaves me with a clear conscience." I mostly do what my intentions tell me, but every time I got time, I think through what I've done and try to justify what I did. If I can't, it means I'll feel sorry every time I think about it.
This can be seen as a shoot-first-ask-later way of thinking, but I still strive to behave in a good way even if I might not think it through as much as you.
On we go, "But, if you don't feel really well about it AND it is immoral then I'd say it's not good."
I'm quite sure this needs some clarifying. So as long as I feel well about what I did, you will accept it? If I kill a person for fun and hit my wife because she interrupted me, you wont think it's bad because I don't feel bad about it?
Obviously, this is not what you're meaning. I Need a clarification as I said.
About WoW not being as economy driven as other games. While it's not meant as an "economy game" , it sure got a well developed economy and the economy is a bigger part of the game than most other games I know.
Also, a player is not a slacker for not getting it in the cheapest way possible. Saying that is almost the same as the "I farmed it myself, so it's free" thinking.
Generally, all items on the auction house can be gained free(not accounting for the time invested) by everyone.
I don't really see the relevance in what you said about 13-year olds. Doing a bad economical decision in real life can lead to poverty, losing your apartment, going hungry every day and maybe death in the end whereas doing a bad economical decision in WoW leads to some more days doing dailies. You wont go hungry, you don't need a place to live and you will only need to do a couple of dailies to pay for your repair bill.
"a closer look will tell that it is more like: "I'm superior. How far can I go abusing my superiority without being immoral?"", at first I was going to disagree with this. Although, I'm not sure if I can.
I don't see it as "abuse" but rather as "use" and the immoral part came later(about the time I noticed they were on AH for 9g, that was not intentional)
I think I said everything I wanted to.
Regarding your first point:
SvaraRaderaI've tried to sustain that it is exactly the intentions that matter in a moral action (saving a man from drowning because he's rich and you expect a reward, wouldn't be a moral action, for your intention is not to help - as moraly you should - but to colect the reward -> i.e. you'd not be performing what it may seem you are performing - an altruistic action of life saving - but rather as a paied effort.)
Other than that, WoW provides a free market (and one with different rules from the "outside world"). You can trade what you want at the price you want (which is not true in the usually regulated markets of the "outisde world".) Is it immoral to put a stack of, say, netherweave cloth at 9999g99s99c bid and BO? I don't think it is. Moreover, nor do I believe you should provide information on AH prices (we assume every wow player knows there may be, at least, one competitor: the AH. If he doesn't check prices on your competitor, he does so at his/her own risk). This goes for vendor items as well as selling items on trade chat above the AH prices.
The missinformation I was reffering to was "I insisted on selling them right now, since next patch, their price would sky-rocket 400%(Or, so I said), so they should buy it while it's cheap." - this is where I draw the line. You had one intention (or so I believe form what we've been "talking", don't mean to be harsh) with this line: to sell. And you used a lie to do so. So should they know better and not trust you? Even if you sustain that they do, what matters is what was your intention in the first place.
And is this a moral action?
Let's say you own a car like I do and, for the sake of argument, that, like myself, you know nothing about car mechanics. Your car has some kind of problem and you take it to a mechanic. Would it be moral if, with the intention of selling a product, we would ill advise you? (and I remind you you started all this by advertising "free goldmaking tips with inscription" - and you gave 1 tip - the "I insisted on selling..." one, which had only the intention of selling and wasn't - necessarily - true.) I don't believe it's fair. Perhaps, a better example is someone advertising "free beauty tips." You go there get the tips and some of them try to make you buy a more expensive product saying it looks better than a cheaper one (again you're expecting the advice of a professional) even if it doesn't or even if the cheaper product makes you actually look better. All this because they want to make a sale.
-Omni (part 1 of 2)
2nd point: Happens to everybody. I just learn from it and move on.
SvaraRadera(Clarification on my 1. above coming up in a post of its own.)
I don't think I understood that bit about the slackers. Well I guess what I was trying to say was: Some people don't really care about the "economy" of wow. They are ignorant and don't want/bother to learn. Still, even M&S don't like being "fooled". The "they can get it cheaper if they do it another way but they don't want to invest tiome in it" refers to stuff like buying the vellum enchant or cut gem instead of uncut/enchant mats and get a ench/JC to make the ench/cut gem (sometimes even for free.) Does this make more sense or I didnt get your point?
About 13 year-olds: You are talking about the consequences and I totally agree with you on that. What I'm trying to say here is, 13 year-old (generally) don't have the ability to make as good (economic) decisions as an adult. So I'm not saying WoW should be a game for 18+. I'm saying that you can get people who are less economy able due to their age. How many 13 years olds you know recognise the concept of "oportunity cost"? Even if adults don't know it, at least they can grasp it better, they have more RL experience. Consequences in wow are milder by a stretch but what I wanted to point out was there are actually some M&S that are kids and a) you couldn't legaly "play" them IRL; b) they aren't exactly morons, they're children; which would lead to c) goblins are a bit less "superior" than they think. (talk about taking candy from a baby, huh?) It was just food for thought.
I write in some breaks I get from my work, so sorry about poor spelling and lack of structure or clearness in these posts.
-Omni (part 2 of 2)
1. This was just because being immoral is not necessarily "bad" in at least one way of seeing it. But, if you don't feel really well about it AND it is immoral then I'd say it's not good.
SvaraRaderaFirstly, I'd like to stress we're dealing with choices, not with consequences. Of course when making choices, one does take possible consequences into account, but we won't go further than that. The shortest clarification I can give you (and this is what I was thinking about when I originaly wrote these two sentences) is along these lines: how fair is it, in a world where your fellow man may not be making moral choices, to take such choices hurting your wellbeing in the process?
This POV basically states that moral is not "good" in itself. However, it can be quite difficult to keep making the right moral choices on and on. Situations arise in which morality can get a little blurred even if you are making use of a "do unto others what you wish they would do to yourself" (or: "act as if your action could be transformed into universal law" - rough translation, and by heart, from the kantian imperative). If you are poor, starved and have three kids starving, can't do much in the meantime (or you don't know better), and you live in, say Rwanda, is stealing in order to eat a moral choice?
It is not moral and it is not right. The person he is stealing from has his/her own rights to property (unless you believe otherwise, but that would take us to another, but yet similar, discussion on the fundamental flaw in communist approaches) and shouldn't be forced to give. But I would, given the situation, find it difficult to blame him/her. Why? I guess because, if I found myself in the same predicament, I wouldn't be "moral enough" to take the "moral choice".
Although you may find examples of things that you "don't feel really well about" and/or are immoral, and end up being good, i'd say it can be a nice gauge sometimes. Notice that even if you do something immoral and if such action doesn't bother you, if your conscience is clear, then you probably won't really care about it's morality to begin with. In the above example of the parent that would steal to feed himself and/or family: he/she may not feel well about it and I have little doubts it is immoral and still he/she may think it's a "good thing" for no other option was/seemed available.
My initial comment about this was just to signal that you felt bad about what you did, be it immoral or not.
What is curious is that you seem to have felt bad about something that I don't believe is immoral and seemed to be ok with something I believe is.
-Omni
Sorry for this meagre post here but final note regarding:
SvaraRadera"I don't see it as "abuse" but rather as "use""
You wrote in your original post:
"Being, or trying to be, a goblin relies a lot on using/abusing M&S(Morons and slackers)."
And would like to appreciate the time you take reading this stuff.
take care.
-Omni
This'll be a short reply, since it's 23:30 here. I'll write some more later, just thought I'd take up some points.
SvaraRaderaA lot of the problems I'm facing right now is my bad memory, I remember the big picture and some small details but not all.
Examples: a) I forgot about writing "using/abusing" in my post. b) ""I insisted on selling them right now, since next patch, their price would sky-rocket 400%(Or, so I said), so they should buy it while it's cheap."" I forgot about that part too. I agree with you that that was immoral and I'm haven't got anything to my defense.
The reason I see selling the inks for 100%~ more than Auction price as immoral is that I still see it as tricking. I don't sell vendor items, although I've checked the market once to see if someone else is doing it.
"Also, a player is not a slacker for not getting it in the cheapest way possible. Saying that is almost the same as the "I farmed it myself, so it's free" thinking. " - Was a reply to what you said:
"some know they can get it cheaper if they do it another way but they don't want to invest the time in it - the "slackers""
What I meant was that you can be extremely conservative with your gold, but it will burn your time very quickly(Like farming all materials to that crafted Ulduar BoE epic)
Or you could spend a lot. It goes fast but takes a lot of gold.
A goblin is somewhere in between, I guess. The point was that those who don't spend gold on getting stuff that you can get with some effort, are closer to the first type(conservative) and most players who are conservative with their gold, most likely are the "I farmed it, so it's free" kind of person. Since seriously, the gold/hour ratio you save(without counting for opportunity cost) is very low.
Seems like this became a little longer than I planned.